Guild Direction?

so its been the unspoken thought on everyones mind recently. a lot of our older, more experienced raiders grow tired of "carrying" the rest of the raid with them when we do mc, and see no progression for us into bwl. on the other hand, the newer members are apparently having a harder time than expected to feel at home. some of them do, but there are people who still feel like they dont belong, and can/will be removed if slightly desired. theres also now a lack of trust in leadership, as i was asked numerous times if whats happening in our guild now was the reason for the bt breakup. i couldnt answer that cause i wasnt around when bt brokeup, but i dont like people to have that idea in thier head. ive been trying to explain that bt was run more as a dictatorship, with "advisors", and our guild is more of a council, where every member can offer advice.

so i thought about it more the past 2 days and im wondering myself now. theres no way we can progress into bwl with our current raiding situation, our immaturity level is high, and morale is low. people cant trust leadership is a huge problem in my eyes. has this been talked about? ignored? are we just gunna keep soildering on until we hit the brick wall known as reality? are we gunna force a more serious approach to raids?

someone converse with me.

[Stug]

The lack of trust is due to a couple poorly handled situations. Wrian was my bad, sorry. Tab was becho pushing for action with no reasoning and no saying otherwise.

As for raiding I would love to get more serious about it and do BWL. I think we can do it with our current members and that it will happen soon. Either our bitching will start to take effect and people will shape up or the more serious peole will get fed up and we will be done.

well id much rather not see the latter happening, but it seems thats the way the odds are leaning now. like i said, half of the raid feels its carrying the other half around for a ride on the loot train.

[Stug]

I think that will play itself out to some extent and we can push for more serious raids in the mean time.

What we really need to work on is regaining the trust of the guild in the leadership. One step towards that is making Bish leader, other than that I'm not sure how to go about it.

yeah, assigining him as gm would ease a bit of the tension, cause for the most part he's fair. but its still a council making the decisions, so not much would be lifted.

as for pushing for raids, although id like to progress into bwl, as mc is an unwanted chore, and most of us wanna move on, i feel like were not ready to progress past it. we cant farm rag yet, hell we still have a huge amount of skills to be honed on the regular bosses to make runs that much smoother. lots of people still need gear, and with half the guild dickin around constantly, its hard to wanna progress if thats gunna be the norm.

[Bishan]

ok, so yeah...at like 5-7am yesterday, rot bech and I had a really lengthy discussion about the state of things. After talking to you Lit, and driving to and from San Antonio yesterday gave me some time to think, I realized all of us "old school" are kinda at our wits end. It's no longer fun, because we carry the burden of people, dragging their asses along with us. It's not fun, it's tiresome, it's burning all of us out. We cannot feasably do BWL with the level of fucktardedness and ADD that we currently have, thus no future kinda thing. Bech Rot and I agreed we need to make some fairly drastic changes, cut out our problem areas, and move forward. We're kinda at "last call". We have one more chance to order a drink and move forward before the majority of our good members get so frustrated they just call it quits. We've got a solid 20 player base to work from at least, in terms of skill and maturity.

Right now our biggest problem, besides mages, is the overall maturity and focus when we raid. We've also got a couple people that do jack shit in raids and just afk all the time. It's annoying, it's obviously apparent in ZG, because no one focuses and we wipe like 3 times to the easiest raid boss in the fucking game. Ok, I started out frustrated when I was typing this at first, I just talked a lot on aim to stug tho. Anyway, we need to fix some things, and we need to go full out on it. I want to see none of our core with "one foot out the door" , it's do or die, and we need to step up. We can bring hammered back to the peak of its preBT days. No drama, just tight knit pure pwn. Granted we have to wait a little bit til after people get back from the holidays.

First order is that we're gonna kick Brang. We'll sustain some losses, possibly, but nothing we cant recover from. With that we can probably pick up jurri, doro, madman, horror, and a couple other top class people and players. Brangwin has worked her way in as a middle man of sorts. We do not really need her. She brings drama and a lot of bad attitude, she talks shit to new players and convinces em of a lot of misconceptions. She also really brings nothing to raids since she's decided to not tank in her Might Shoulder protest. If she's not gonna even try and tank, we dont need number 22nd on dps, or auto-attack afk. Seriously, if stug is ahead of her, and half the time he does high agro/low dmg skills, or shield block, or whatever waste of rage non dmg agro he does, and she's below him, auto-attack is the only thing possible. The only reason she dual wields is so it looks more active imo. Anyway, I digress...we have some shit to fix, we're going to be more heavy handed initially than we have been. We're going to stress discipline in raids, people need this until theyve learned to be a team. We're going to stress a drama free environment, and thus boot idiots that just cause trouble for no good reason. Heavy handed is bad, but currently it's needed to remold the guild into what it's always been meant to be...a tight knit community that pwns at WoW. Tight knit first, pwn second. That doesn't mean we have a liscense to suck, no one joined to wipe 6 times on farm status mobs. Lets buckle down and fix our shit...Lets move forward.

[Bishan]

Also it's nice to have a GM because people can come to me if they have problems with an officer for some reason. Also, I can be like this decision is final stfu. I'll take the flak, you guys can do your jobs and get shit done. It makes things easier imo. Although, I'll probably make someone else in charge of apps. I'll have my plate full with other shit if we go forward from here.

[Shavnir]

I asked Brangwin about being in MC in valor instead of the stockade pauldrons. It was to help her attempt at DPS.

God am I the only one that dosen't see her as an imminent threat to guild breakup?

[Bishan]

look, we have a core 25 people at least, that's if tons of people leave because of brangwin. she's at most dragging 4 or 5 with her, which can easily be replaced by less add non helping noobtards like jurri horrorsoul madman and doro. id trade that without much though. however, i've had a lot of though, and she does nothing but cause drama. we have enough of a core that we wont lose the guild because of brangwin
we;ll lose shweex, maybe po, maybe (doubtful) zard, maybe but doubtful tamerane. past that i doubt we'll lose much else. po and shweex are retards, tamerane is akfing til bosses on every raid, honestly the problems leave with her, and hell, im fine with that.

so after much deliberation, yeah, you're the only one that thinks the guild will immediately fall apart upon brangwin leaving. we'll be left with the old hammered, the committed core. which in the end, is probably a better place, as brangwin has forced good people out of the guild and kept good players from joining, due to her shitty manipulations.

Originally Posted by Shavnir

I asked Brangwin about being in MC in valor instead of the stockade pauldrons.ÂÂ* It was to help her attempt at DPS.

God am I the only one that dosen't see her as an imminent threat to guild breakup?

where were you for the past 3 months?

[Shavnir]

I'm not saying dropping her will break up the guild. I'm saying I don't see her as that bad.

But its okay, there's been sufficent proof otherwise. Do what you have to do.

EDIT : I guess my point is this, every example Stug mentioned of us gkicking someone it has been a mistake or an overreaction. You're trying to get the members of the guild to trust the leadership while plotting for weeks on end to remove someone (who may or may not be guilty).

I'm just saying there may be more consequences than meet the eye.

[Bishan]

nothing will happen til after the holiday guild break. on the surface she's gotten better, but Ive noticed her slip a couple times. I think she's just gotten better at hiding her shit. honestly, she "isnt that bad" but she also isnt doing any real good. she causes tons of drama.

i think its pretty obvious when theres 238927358907 complaints about a person, from a large variety of people in the guild, that its safe to say they should be leaving.

[OT]

I posted pretty much this exact same thread about a week and a half to two weeks ago and everyone told me that we'd be good and we could do BWL with our current make up.... I agree whole heartedly with Litiga and I'm also incredably tired of all the fucktards in this guild. Wiping repeatedly in ZG really gets on my nerves and same goes for 6 hour MC clears which are incredably stressful for me since I'm always working my ass off to keep people alive/rez/buff/dispell since no one else does it. There is too much taken for granted by a lot of people, and honestly (and i expresse this to Bish and Bech) I'd rather pull an AD and disband/recreate the guild. We lose all the extra baggage and alts and shit that have built up over the last year. Then we invite people back that we want, no one slips by because it becomes "who do we want" instead of "who is bad enough to boot". If we get serious, the serious players will come to us. Now, I'm fine with the three day raid schedule and being tight nit, but I'm gonna stay shadow until we get a serious group back together, because working my ass off as disc/holy just to watch people afk and fuck up has gotten old.

yeah i was actually just reading that thread. didnt notice it until today :-X

[Suku]

Originally Posted by OT

Wiping repeatedly in ZG really gets on my nerves and same goes for 6 hour MC clears which are incredably stressful for me since I'm always working my ass off to keep people alive/rez/buff/dispell since no one else does it.

First of all, this is an overstatement. There are others who contribute, and if there wasn't what would happen on the days you are not there to raid? Also, I think there are too many in the guild forming some sort of clique (I'm not sure how else to describe it) and unfortunately we are being torn apart. There is a great lack of communication, when people are kicked without giving an explanation, when people are not aware of getting the mats for the cindercloth cloak, the whole "I hate crelix" joke, along with talking about our problem with such and such player to everyone but them...

So, what is the plan of gaining back the trust in leadership? Will Brangwin help or hurt this problem and what happens when those 30 great people that come along with Jurri annoy just as many people and/or create the same tension we are trying to relieve?

Yeah I know there is probably too much talking, not enough action, but no matter who we get or have there will always be drama... there will always be bullshit... We are playing a game with people where the whole package is not just the face you see in the game but the person at the computer with issues, RL drama and any other baggage they have gained in life.

[Shadaraman]

It's truth, we're never going to escape the drama and the bullshit, not if we want to maintain a raid capapble guild. Frankly, I have no idea what direction we shiould be taking. The one we're on right now seems doomed, as do the other options I see.

I just went and canceled my account. It ends february 4th, I'll be playing till then, and the state of the guild at that point will determine if I stay, but at this point there's too much shit for something that's supposed to be what I do to relax.

[OT]

Originally Posted by Suku

First of all, this is an overstatement. There are others who contribute, and if there wasn't what would happen on the days you are not there to raid? Also, I think there are too many in the guild forming some sort of clique (I'm not sure how else to describe it) and unfortunately we are being torn apart. There is a great lack of communication, when people are kicked without giving an explanation, when people are not aware of getting the mats for the cindercloth cloak, the whole "I hate crelix" joke, along with talking about our problem with such and such player to everyone but them...

So, what is the plan of gaining back the trust in leadership? Will Brangwin help or hurt this problem and what happens when those 30 great people that come along with Jurri annoy just as many people and/or create the same tension we are trying to relieve?

Yeah I know there is probably too much talking, not enough action, but no matter who we get or have there will always be drama... there will always be bullshit... We are playing a game with people where the whole package is not just the face you see in the game but the person at the computer with issues, RL drama and any other baggage they have gained in life.

I'm sorry, what I meant was most of the other priests are particualarly lazy about buffing and keeping up with any of the fortitudes. I'm kind of anal and want the whole raid to be buffed, where none of the other priests really care, so it annoys me when they don't really buff anyone unless directly asked several times. I'm also usually the only priest who rezzes the random guy who dies and I must be the only one dispelling the fire lord debuff since I always eat full burns...

As for drama, if theres always going to be drama, we should atleast put together a guild of people who are good at their classes and pay attention. Any instance is always more tolerable when people are trying their hardest 100% of the time. I can always mute Vent if I have to, but I apparently can't force people to pay attention and give a concerted effort every time we raid as a guild.

Originally Posted by Shadaraman

It's truth, we're never going to escape the drama and the bullshit, not if we want to maintain a raid capapble guild.ÂÂ* Frankly, I have no idea what direction we shiould be taking.ÂÂ* The one we're on right now seems doomed, as do the other options I see.

I just went and canceled my account.ÂÂ* It ends february 4th, I'll be playing till then, and the state of the guild at that point will determine if I stay, but at this point there's too much shit for something that's supposed to be what I do to relax.

cancelling because we suck atm?

no serisouly, we do suck atm. tight knit group of pwn has been destroyed and split into several groups of minor pwnage at best. im not sure what action could possibly be the best move at this point. kickind retarded fools and starting over solves the slacker situation, but then that causes a lot of tension with us and fools on the server. keeping everyone is going to drive a lot of people insane, myself included. i do what i can to maintain a level head as long as i can when we raid, but theres only so much i can take. i normally tend to snap right about at lava packs in mc, and on the first pull in zg. everytime im in zg tanking, if im not giving orders and forcing a push we're dickin around for 5 extra hours and turn a 3 hour instance to a 2 day instance.

im not sure which way would be best, though id like to see new content. thank god for my KJ escape.

[Shadaraman]

Originally Posted by Litiga

cancelling because we suck atm?

Pretty much, I figure if we can't fix our shit by february, I'm done. In truth, I fully expect to renew the account then, but I don't wan't to spend the money unless I'm sure.